Can You Get A Thailand Elite Visa If You Have Ever Filed Bankruptcy?
And A Warning About Unscrupulous Western Expat Visa Agents In Thailand
This post is a longer version of the YouTube video and the podcast with a bit more information. I’ll link to the video and podcast below, if you would prefer to watch or listen, instead, to the shorter version.
================================================================
This article is not only about bankruptcy and Thailand Elite visas. It's also about shopping for visa agents and being careful about agents who do not have your best interests in mind.
The first thing I want to be sure you know is that if you want a Thailand Elite visa, you do NOT have to pay any agent fees. You also don't have to pay any consultation fees regarding an Elite visa.
And, you can apply for an Elite visa directly with the Thailand Elite Privilege Card company and not one of their agents who get a commission. To apply directly with the company and not one of their agents, you can do so on their website, which also has their direct contact information if you want to communicate directly with them. They are the ones who will be processing your application, anyway, so why not deal directly with them?
This is their official website: ThailandElite.com
Their website also has a list of their approved agents. So, if you decide you do want to use an agent for whatever reason, you can double-check to make sure that agent is approved to handle Elite visas. And remember, that the Thailand Elite company pays their commission. Not you.
Another piece of advice, if you decide to use a Thailand Elite visa agent, is to find out if you're going to have to complete the process in Bangkok. For instance, if you're thinking you might want to deal with an Elite agent in one of the provinces, so you don't have to go to Bangkok -- find out if you will actually have to go to Bangkok, anyway. Sometimes you do.
I did not know I could just contact the Thailand Elite company directly. So far, I have only spoken to western (expat) visa agents in Thailand. So if anything I say can be construed as potentially "negative" regarding visa agents in Thailand, let me just say right now that I am not disparaging any Thai citizens, whatsoever. So, please don't have me arrested for defamation of a Thai citizen if/when I get to Thailand. Where’s the cute emoji when you need one…
Let me say, right off the bat, that if you aren't in Thailand yet, and you are shopping for a visa agent, and you're not sure which type of visa you want to get, let me suggest that you put in your budget enough money to pay for consultation fees with at least several different visa agents. They are all going to want a consultation fee to give you advice, either by phone or WhatsApp or Zoom, etc.
People are in business to make money and that's understandable. Now, you know if you are an American or a Canadian or probably anywhere in the world, if you're going to go buy something and you do not have knowledge, it's quite likely that the person trying to sell you something is probably going to try to oversell you. Such as lead you to the Camaro instead of the VW bug if you're at a used car salesman's lot.
So, know that. It's no different anywhere else. And just because someone is a fellow expat in a different country who is from your home country, that doesn't mean they won't take advantage of your lack of knowledge in a different country, too, and maybe sell you more than you need or not necessarily tell you the truth in order to make a sale.
I highly suggest that you go ahead and budget for at least 3 consultations, which will cost you anywhere from around $100 to $150USD each. Find out if you click or get a hinky feeling. You'll also find out that the quotes for helping you with getting your visa or other services will be all over the map. So, take your time and really check out at least several different agents and service providers. Sometimes they'll offer to deduct that consultation fee from your bill if you hire them to handle your visa or other services.
And, use your common sense and instincts, if what you're being told doesn't sound quite right to you.
I actually had a visa agent in Thailand suggest to me that I lie to the Thai government, and that they probably wouldn't catch me, so it doesn't matter. It was a 20-year Thailand Elite Visa that was going to cost me nearly $30,000USD.
I'm not comfortable lying. I'm just not. I believe in karma and doing the right thing. And, why worry for 20 years, right? I want to do things right, and I want to be legal.
I also wasn't getting a clear answer on the bankruptcy question regarding whether or not it would be an issue. I was being told not to worry about it; that the Thai government and Thai immigration would never be able to get an American credit report and that if they approved my application, they would have done their due diligence, so it would basically be on them if they shouldn't have approved my application.
Give me a break. For one, how insulting is that to the Thai people? As if their military, their immigration, their government can't find out whether or not there is a bankruptcy on your record, even though you have given them permission to do a background check to find out if you are someone allowed into their country?
And, it's insulting to me, assuming I would be too stupid to know that was ridiculous and an obvious ploy to simply get their commission without a care in the world as to whether or not I lost my money, got potentially banned from Thailand or at worst thrown into a jail in Thailand for fraud against the Thai government.
This same visa agent also provided me with a contract that did not say the same things I'd been told, verbally. I requested that they change the contract to state what I had been told, and was told that they aren't allowed to change the contract, but trust them that what they told me verbally was really the actual agreement.
Yeah, wow. I have a bachelor’s degree in law and let me say, in case you don't already know this, that the ONLY thing that matters when you sign a contract, is what's in the written contract. Anything that was told to you verbally doesn't matter, unless it's also in the written contract. Don't believe that type of bait and switch.
Yeesh. So, yeah, don't be so naive as to believe a fellow expat won't throw you under the bus for money. And then, watch their sweet demeanor turn nasty when you call them out on it and tell them you don't want to sign their contract, even if you very nicely say no thank you, as I did. Their true colors will start showing when you make it clear they won't be getting your money.
The upside to this experience is that I was able to get a copy of the actual contract that you sign as part of the application to get an Elite visa. It says, clear as day, that you certify that you truly believe you qualify to apply, which includes a clause regarding not being in bankruptcy. It also states that you agree that if you're ever caught lying on the application, that you will forfeit your visa and your money -- and that you agree not to sue for damages.
It definitely does NOT say that if the Thai government finds out later that you lied, there's no penalty because they should have caught you during the application process, and they didn't, so you get a free pass.
The clause in the agreement regarding bankruptcy is #10 on the agreement, which states (that you certify):
#10) Not being a person involved, directly or indirectly, in bankruptcy or insolvency liquidation.
My confusion was what "in bankruptcy" means. My bankruptcy was "dismissed" in 2014. It still shows on my credit report in the U.S. for ten years. So, am I "in bankruptcy" or not?
The western visa agent in Thailand that told me to go ahead and lie, told me that this clause only relates to someone having ever filed for bankruptcy in Thailand. That made no sense to me, as it's quite possible that someone applying for an Elite visa may have never even visited Thailand before, since you're allowed to apply for it from outside the country. So, I trusted my instincts and started researching on my own.
I wanted a Thai law firm's opinion on what being "in bankruptcy" means exactly, because Thai law is well-known for being written in an overly broad manner that allows the government to interpret them in different ways, and whether or not it only applies to a bankruptcy in Thailand, which made no sense to me. If I am going to spend $28,000 USD or so on a visa, I want to know it shouldn't ever be taken away. And, I want a Thai law firm to tell me I'm in the clear, not an agent who is trying to get a commission.
So, my mission was to find a Thai law firm's opinion on this Thai law regarding bankruptcy and Elite visas. What I found was the FAQ (frequently asked questions) page on ThaiEmbassy.com regarding Thai Elite visas, which is a website managed by Siam Legal International, a Thai law firm. Here is what Siam Legal International says:
Q: "I have previously been bankrupt. Am I eligible to apply for Thai Elite (visa)?
A: "Bankruptcy time frames can vary from country to country, e.g., in Australia bankruptcy will be noted in your file for 10 years.
If you are outside the timeframe of bankruptcy for your country, then you are eligible to apply for a Thai Elite visa. If you are currently within the term of bankruptcy, then you cannot apply for a visa."
In the U.S., a bankruptcy shows on your credit report for 10 years from the date of filing for a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, or 7 years for a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. So, my takeaway from this answer regarding my U.S. bankruptcy, is that once the bankruptcy falls off of my credit report, then I am legal to apply for the Thailand Elite visa.
So, the next thing to consider is whether or not you want to pay for a different type of visa that has no limits on prior bankruptcies while waiting to become legal to apply for the Thailand Elite visa, and possibly do border runs or tie up a bunch of money in a Thai bank account or pay for health insurance, etc., which won't be required for the Elite visa.
For me, I think it makes more sense to just wait to go to Thailand. My bankruptcy will fall off of my credit report in less than a year. I don't want to have to put money into a Thai bank account that will earn about zero interest, then go through the hassle of getting that money back, pay a bunch of visa agent fees, maybe pay for travel for border runs, etc., etc., while I wait for the bankruptcy to fall off of the report.
This actually helps in my decision to go check out The Philippines (PH), first. The Philippines is so much friendlier regarding visas. I can get permanent residency in PH for a $10,000 fee (only $1,500 if you are a veteran under the SRRV Courtesy visa) with the Philippines SRRV Classic visa plus $360/year annual fee, which I discussed in another article. And on the SRRV Classic visa, PH will allow me to pay into their national healthcare, PhilHealth, for only around $300/year. Plus, with this SRRV Classic visa, the Philippines Retirement Agency helps with a bunch of other services for free, like the Thailand Elite visa does, and you’re allowed to work.
And who knows, I may end up deciding I'm happy in PH and just decide to stay where their government makes it clear they want me for the rest of my life and makes it easy for me to do so.
I'll keep you posted.
Here’s the link to the podcast of the shorter version of the above.
And, here’s the YouTube video of the shorter version:
References (please also see article for images of the Elite visa contract):
Thailand Elite Visa company official website
Siam Legal International Thai Law Firm Website
Philippines Retirement Authority Official Website On SRRV Visas
gotta ask, what happened to your YouTube channel? last video I saw you were excited about see dolphins. now your channel no longer exists.